Oswald Nails It

Don't know if you've ever read "My Utmost for His Highest" by Oswald Chambers before or not. It's a great devotional. Recently I discovered that someone has put up a site hosting all the days of the book. They even have an RSS feed.

Today's entry is: Sacred Service.

The line that jumps out and grabs me is:

"If we simply preach the effects of redemption in the human life instead of the revealed, divine truth regarding Jesus Himself, the result is not new birth in those who listen."

What a rebuke to the arrogant parts of my life that want to point out how great my life is, and how people should follow Jesus so they can be like me. Equally this is a warning to me, not to preach a 'self-help' religion where I hear that people are suffering and I offer them the Savior as a solution to that suffering. Of course, I'm not saying that Jesus doesn't help in our time of need. But what I am saying is that He came and died for so much more. He came to save us from the wrath of the Father that we had earned. And besides, He may not think it's best to remove some affliction from us in a particular season.

Instead I should focus on the supremacy of Christ. His matchless splendor. His amazing grace. His unending kindness. And let that kindness lead to repentance.

Talk about Bad Theology

Below is an excerpt from a post from Dallas Willard. The italics in the quote are directly from the post, but the bold part is my addition.

"

"But I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I'm not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?"

I would take her to Romans 2:6-10: "God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

What Paul is clearly saying is that if anyone is worthy of being saved, they will be saved. At that point many Christians get very anxious, saying that absolutely no one is worthy of being saved. The implication of that is that a person can be almost totally good, but miss the message about Jesus, and be sent to hell. What kind of a God would do that? I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save. I am not going to say "he can't save them." I am happy for God to save anyone he wants in any way he can. It is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved. But anyone who is going to be saved is going to be saved by Jesus: "There is no other name given under heaven by which men can be saved.""

This kind of thinking is amazingly dangerous and I would say even borders on heresy.

1) If someone comes to you and says: What about my buddhist/muslim/atheist friend who is really good, won't they go to heaven? Your answer is very scripturally: Unless they repent and believe (Mark 1:15, Acts 19:4, Romans 10:9-10) they shall not be saved. There is absolutely only one sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 10:12), not multiple. In fact this is the entire point of Romans 1-3. In particular Romans 1:18-32 labors the point that God is knowable and that those who reject the God of the Bible do so knowingly and purposely. What kind of god is God who rejects those who are nice but reject Him? A righteous, holy, perfect, and just God. He is the ultimate one deserving of worship. It is Him alone who made the universe and everything in it. He alone holds the universe together even now. Worshiping any other, including ourselves, is the height of idolatry. In fact, God is infinitely merciful to allow all of us who previously worshiped other than He to live long enough to accept His Lordship.

2) Willard's whole point that people can be super good and just not know Jesus and therefore be hosed out of getting into heaven by an unfair God completely ignores the entire contents of Romans 1-3. Paul is making the point as strongly as possible that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none. NOT EVEN ONE!! who is perfect enough to get into heaven. That is except for Jesus of course. Remember that even a single sin separates us from God because is perfect. Once we're less than perfect we cannot be in His presence, and He can't stand to have us in His presence. Imagine if you said/did one dumb thing to the CEO of your company or to the President. You would be forever removed from his presence for your incompetence. Those at the top don't want to have you there to taint them. God of course is thousand, billion times more holy then mere men and cannot have sinners near Him. The only way we get to be in the presence of the Father is through His amazing mercy, shown through the willingness of God to kill His Son on our behalf to bear our burden in our place. Then we have the righteousness of Christ instead of our own, and suddenly we're adopted into the Family and made to be His children.

3) He says Christians get anxious about this point. No we don't. We get saddened for those who don't know the Lord and are too stubborn to look at the sin in their life and repent. We long for those we love to realize that their works are not sufficient to save them, and that only Jesus can do so. We long to tell them the truth that they may be saved instead of languish in false hope.

4) His strange laundering statement at the end that anyone who is going to be saved will be saved by Jesus regardless of their knowledge of Him is completely and totally ridiculous double-talk. Now at this point if he tried to bring up Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and their lack of knowledge of who Jesus is, I'd at least give him some credit that he was trying to argue from the Bible. Thankfully God doesn't leave us hanging with His Theology. Romans 4 makes it clear that Abraham was saved by faith in the Promise of the Messiah. And Jesus makes clear in Matthew 5 that Moses wrote about Him. But to say that anyone today who doesn't hear about Jesus is excused, but will still be saved by Jesus is nonsense and confusing.

If you don't know Jesus, Please, Please, Please read the Bible and pursue whether the claims of Christ are true. Talk to me about them, talk to someone else. Just find out if it's true or not. Because if you're thinking that somehow you are going to deal with your sin/guilt problem on your own or through some mechanism other than Jesus' death on the cross, you will have a very, very painful realization when you die.

Resources to follow up Sunday Sermon

Hey everyone. Don't know if you had a chance to catch Hopper's sermon from last week (9/5/2010). He may not agree, but I think his main point was: We need to be ready to share the gospel in one of 3 venues even if we lean towards only one of those venues. His three venues were: (1) Intellectual discussion (2) Miraculous conversion (3) Service opening I personally lean towards (1) b/c that's the way the Lord has gifted me. I can do the other two, but I'm weaker at them. Not saying of course that I'm perfect, far from it (just ask my wife and close friends ;).

One of the neat things about Acts 16, that Hopper referenced, is that in both of the examples of people who were recorded as specifically believing, Lydia & Jailer, they were able to come to faith because Paul was able to explain to them what they needed to do to be saved and provided other details of the gospel that they could understand. Do you or your community group members know how to share the gospel and what some basic tenants of the faith are so that they can 'give an answer'?

Below is a list of resources I've used to help me do that. (This list is not an all encompassing list. Just meant to get you started.) Feel free to try them out or comment below as to whether they or other resources have been useful to you. Some at BACC may not even like some of these resources. That's ok too. Again feel free to post other options.

Basic Systematic Theology

• Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - by R.C. Sproul (Book has 2 to 3 page explanations of a doctrine and the verses to support it. Great for first timers)
• Christian Beliefs: 20 basics every Christian should know - by Wayne Grudem (this is the short-short book, not the short-long or the long-long book ;)
• Systematic Theology - by Tommy Nelson (sermon series from mid 90s from a favorite pastor of mine at Denton Bible Church)
• Drive By Theology - by Todd Friel (short 15 min lessons made for commutes)

Basic Gospel presentation

• What is the Gospel? by Greg Gilbert (Great little 100 page book on the gospel)
• Terrified - by Todd Friel (20 some Audio examples of witnessing encounters teaching you the right and wrong way to get into conversations with people)

Solo Deo Gloria --doug ><>

Jesus is more than a teacher

I recently discovered that someone has put up a site with daily updated "My Utmost for His Highest" by Oswald Chambers devotionals. This is one of my all time favorite devotionals, as Oswald constantly calls me back to humility in Christ. When I submitted myself to the full Lordship of Christ in college, this devotional was one of the key growing things that the Lord put in my life to teach me about Him.

Today's devotional was called: The Doorway to the Kingdom.

Basically the devo says that if we look at Jesus, merely as a teacher, then He commands too high of a standard for us to follow. Without submitting to His will and taking on the Spirit to help us, we cannot achieve what He requires and will be hopelessly frustrated. He ends the devo beautifully by pointing out the gospel and our need to believe that we are wretched, hopeless sinners in need of the free grace offered in Christ's wrath-averting sacrifice for our sins.

As a teacher of the Lord I need to be always aware and careful not to put burdens on my students. I need to not add box cars to their train without providing the engine of the gospel for them to rely on for pulling the demands of holiness. As Oswald says:

"He came to make me what He teaches I should be"

Hebrews 1:10-15 Jesus still better than Angels

Hebrews 1:10-14 ¹⁰And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; ¹¹they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, ¹²like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."¹³And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? ¹⁴Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Observation/Interpretation

• Jesus created the earth and heavens. Therefore He is greater than angels b/c they don't create things. I'd also like to point out how powerful this makes Jesus. I mean imagine all the intricate details of life and the universe. He set up all the rules of physics, chemistry, biology. And He did it in a way that was intrinsically beautiful. What an amazing God we serve.
• The current physical parts of creation will eventually break down and be destroyed (2nd law of thermodynamics), but Jesus will remain.
• Jesus is immutable. He never changes in His Godhood. He doesn't come up with new crazy ideas, He doesn't forget us. Jesus never changes, therefore He is better than angels.
• Jesus is now and will live forever. His years do not end like physical beings.
• Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father where His enemies are laid bare. He is the conqueror and enjoys the fruits of His labor. What a cool word picture by the way. To so utterly crush your enemies that they are your footstool.
• Angels after all are merely sent out to serve those who are Christians. Jesus' role was much greater than mere service alone.

Application

• I must worship Jesus. He is so powerful and awe inspiring. He never changes and yet created change in the universe. Amazing.
• I can trust in Jesus' unchangeability and therefore rest, knowing that my salvation is secure.
• I can hope in Jesus' future destruction of sin and the devil and look forward to a day when I don't have to be tempted to sin any more
• I should read more scripture and use it to teach others and improve my understanding of who God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are.

Email Apologetics 5 (gospel illustrations in Genesis)

This is another post in the series of emails between my friend and his dad. In one of my friend's dad's emails he says the following sentence:

"I hope that God sees me fit for mercy and on the appointed day welcomes me into the Holy Presence."

How can God see him as fit? If its by works, not by grace, of which he would have some part in, then he's not going to get in. (Eph. 2:1-10). How do we teach him how often in scripture God points to His salvation of the people instead of their work? How about showing him these examples?
Genesis 3 (in particular vs 7 & 21): Man tries to cover his sin ineffectively with a fig leaf. God instead covers it effectively with an animal skin. God kills the animal and makes the clothes, not man!
Genesis 7 (in particular vs 16): God destroys the world b/c of people's sin, but saves Noah. He tells Noah how to build the ark, and then when Noah is inside, God shuts the door for him. The ark is an illustration of Jesus that protects us from God's wrath. And God was the source of all of it.
Genesis 22 (in particular vs 13-14 ): Abraham is to kill his son Issac. Abe logically believes that God will raise him from the dead. Instead God provides a ram to be sacrificed instead. God provides, not man. And the son of the promise is effectively slain but raised from the dead. I know this one is a little harder to see.
Genesis 28 (in particular vs 12): Jacob (soon to be renamed Israel) sees a ladder between heaven and earth with angels ascending and descending. This ladder is Jesus. He connects earth and heaven as only God can. Man doesn't create this ladder. Jesus even refers t this incident in John 1:50-51.
Genesis 37,41-45: Joseph is the son of promise who is hated by his brothers and sold into slavery, aka death. The son rises out of prison and rules all of Egypt and is able to provide for his family. Just like Jesus who was hated by His Jewish brothers, slain, and who raised on the 3rd day and now provides mediation and salvation to us who repent and believe in Him. And by the way in both cases man does nothing. God makes it all happen.

I can keep going to include Moses leading the people across the red sea, something in possible that man couldn't do. Or Joshua who rolls back the Jordan to a town called Adam so that we can clearly see that sin is rolled back to Adam in Christ. Or Ruth, a foreigner, who is granted a kinsman redeemer and welcomed into the true people of God. All of these happen b/c God does the work not man. God won't see us fit on the final judgment day. Only by claiming Christ and His work will we get in.

By the way if you think he's struggling with the veracity of the Bible and he'd listen to a lecture on it. This is my favorite one. If you haven't listened to this before, its well worth your time.

Hebrews 1:7-9 Jesus saves better than angels

Hebrews 1:7-9 ⁷Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire." ⁸But of the Son he says,"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ⁹You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

Observation/Interpretation:

• Jesus is better than angels because He is more permanent than they are.
• Angels are temporary compared to winds and fire, but Jesus (aka God) is forever and ever.
• Jesus is God by the way. Yup that's right God is Triune. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God and are distinct persons at the same time. Yup its also a mystery. I kind of like this mystery frankly b/c it means God is more than I can completely grasp. Which is a good quality of a real God. If I could grasp Him completely then I might as well be God.
• Jesus' kingdom is ruled in righteousness. Not like kings on earth where we know they have all used some amount of 'greasing the palms' to get into power.
• Jesus is in heaven and accepted by God b/c He hates wickedness and loved righteousness. He alone was able to completely represent man and still be deity. Thereby offering up a perfect representative sacrifice for us.
• Note too that God & Jesus hate wickedness. This means that those who do wickedness are included in that hate. Later on in Hebrews we'll see that its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
• Jesus is more highly anointed than His companions b/c He alone is perfectly righteous.

Applications:

• I must worship Jesus and not angels
• I must trust in Jesus b/c He lasts forever unlike other things/people
• I want to be like Jesus and hate wickedness in my life, and love righteousness instead
  
• I want to share how great Jesus is with others b/c I want them to know of their danger, and know that God has a solution for them

Just as P.S. I want to point out that its people's individual sins that they have knowingly committed as an affront to God that He is angry with. Its not just the general sin of humanity. But it is everyone's individual treasonous rebellion that has earned His hatred.

Email Apologetics 4

I wrote this response:

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

Friend's dad,
This is a very good question: "What then would allow me, a sinner, to think that I have a "complete" picture?"

The short answer is that the Holy Spirit makes the picture complete for you, and me. He is the one that draws us to Him and helps us understand the scriptures.

Just some examples to illustrate my point.
1) You're completely right that the disciples didn't understand half (maybe 3/4's ;) of what Jesus said to them while He was alive. The main reason for which was because they hadn't been given the Holy Spirit yet. Once God was living in them and through them in the Spirit, they could recall all that Jesus had taught them and apply it.

2) John 6 and 10 (and Romans 8, Ephesians 1, etc...) teach that the Spirit draws us and changes our hearts to understand. Ezekiel 36:24-27 is a great OT passage that describes how the Lord changes our hearts and makes it possible for us to understand the mercy of God that we can attain if we confess our sins via repentance and believe in Him.

I don't quite get your meaning when you say: "Our perception(revelation) Of the Old Testament is different than the New." Are you saying that the OT and the NT teach different stories or represent different concepts of God? If so, I think this is a common misconception. One that my own uncle and I were discussing just this weekend as a matter of fact.

There are lots of ways to address this concern. Perhaps the easiest is when Jesus says in John 5 that '...Moses wrote about me...'. Jesus is making clear here that the intent of the OT was to be the womb or the incubator to explain the death and resurrection of Jesus. When Moses wrote the law, including the sacrificial system, he did it to illustrate Jesus because the ancient Hebrews (and us for that matter) wouldn't have understood Jesus' sacrifice without a picture of animal sacrifices to set the stage. The passover lamb is the best example of this. The lamb was without blemish and was sacrificed to protect the people, Just like Jesus 1500 years later. Romans 3 clarifies that God never intended for sins to be absolved by the lamb, but that its death pointed to Jesus.

So anyway, long story short, the best way to find out if what the Bible says is true, is it test it. I do this every day. I look at my life and I see the sin and desire to be selfish within me. I know that this causes a problem with me and God because it shows my betrayal of His rightful kingship. The Bible teaches me that the only solution to that sin problem is Jesus' death and my acceptance of it's power to save me, not through my efforts to get right with God.

Can I challenge you to read through the book of Romans and shoot some questions out to this email group as you go? I think it will cover many of your questions and perhaps raise some new ones.

Its a pleasure talking with you. I am continuing to pray for you.

--doug ><>

Email Apologetics 3

My friend's dad sent this one.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Friend's Dad wrote:
Doug,
It is good to see that my son has friends in the “Spirit”. Since your study is in Hebrews, my question is, I think, fitting. I believe that Our God is unchanging and that God exists outside the boundary of time, but we are not. The latter I know. Therefore, it must be our perception of God that is subject to change. Our perception(revelation) Of the Old Testament is different than the New. God came to us in person. Jesus is the only Son. He clearly new his mission. However, even with Jesus as personal teacher, His disciples still misinterpreted His meaning. What then would allow me, a sinner, to think that I have a “complete” picture? This is what my reason compels me to think. My faith must do the rest.

Friend's Dad

Email Apologetics 2

Email number two is from me.

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Doug wrote:

I haven't heard of open theism before.

I'm in Hebrews right now, so a lot of my thinking about who God is, is affected by that book at the moment. Heb. 1:1-4 is the author's way to grab our attention and get us to see that Jesus, not only is God, but that He is also the provider of purification for our sins. And let me tell you, I need that.

See for me, a lot of who God is, makes sense to me in the context of His promises to save us from our sins if we repent and believe in Him. God repeatedly promises to save us to the uttermost, to be the anchor of our soul, to never leave us nor forsake us, etc... He can only make those promises if He is completely in control and has full knowledge of the past, present, and future.

One way its been explained to me is that God is outside of time. He exists in eternity, which means that finite time is like a filmstrip that He is standing back and looking at. He can see all points on the time line all at once. And this is no problem for Him because He is infinite. Our little minds would just be blown by the thought of such an experience. But being the creator of all, even time, it's no big deal for Him.

Anyway all that to illustrate that when God makes a promise, He's actually able to keep it because He has existed before, during and after time. And since God cannot lie, then I can trust His promises and know that He will save me forever.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
--doug ><>

Email Apologetics 1

This starts a series of posts where I'm interacting with a friend of mine's dad. Its a great exchange. I hope you can benefit from this exchange as I have. I'll post the emails one at a time. I'm sanitizing the names. The first is from my friend.

From: Doug's Friend
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 8:33:40 PM

Subject: new question from Dad
Hi Doug (and Dad),

Just spoke with Dad on his way home from a weekend down the shore. I let him know that he has some e-mail waiting in his inbox. Dad asked another question:

"Does God know the future?"

This is clearly the leading question that an open theist (like Greg Boyd) would ask. My Dad remarked that if God does not know the future then "it gets Him off the hook" for alot of stuff.

I'll say this now: it's absolutely unorthodox. It is aberrant teaching in my opinion.

Hebrews 1:4-6 Jesus is greater than the angels

Hebrews 1:4-6 "⁴having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. ⁵For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? ⁶And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him.""

Observation/Interpretation:

• Jesus is greater than all others. The author of Hebrews will start comparing/contrasting Jesus with Angels, and then move on to Moses and the Law.
• In this passage Jesus is better than angels because:
  1. Jesus has a better name. His name means "the Lord saves" This is a better name than Angel which is the word for messenger. If you're in deep trouble, wouldn't you rather have someone who can actually save you than someone who just tells you a message about it?
  2. Jesus is God's son. That's way better than an angel. Angels are not in the family of God, but are mere servants. Jesus is both God and the Son in the Trinity. This position is far higher than the angels
  3. Lastly Jesus is worshiped by the angels. Clearly the greater is worshiped by the lesser.

Application:

• Jesus is the greatest! I must worship Him.
• Jesus saves! I want to tell others about Him, and I want to know that I am saved. By the way what am I needing saving from? The wrath of God that I've earned by treasonously sinning against God the King (Luke 13). I can attain that salvation by repenting and believing. (Rom 10)

Hebrews 1:1-3

These are some cross posts from another blog I'm trying to get started with some friends of mine. We're trying to study Hebrews (or any scripture for that matter) in a blog format instead of email. Its not exactly taking off yet...

Hebrews 1:1-3: ¹Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, ²but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. ³ the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.He is the radiance of the glory of God and After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Observations/Interpretations:

• The main point of the book of Hebrews is to tell us that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish Old Testament prophets and law. The book starts out by saying we heard about God other ways in the past, but now we know about Him directly via Jesus.
• Jesus is the creative force that created the world. Similar to John 1:1-3.
• Jesus is God
• Jesus upholds every atom as it spins. He keeps the ratios between the strong and weak nuclear forces just right so that atoms don't fly apart and the universe collapses. He literally holds everything together.
• Jesus purified us from our sins, those who believe as we'll see later in the book, and now sits down next to the Father in heaven. This means that His work is finished once for all time.

Application:

• I must worship Jesus for His power, His Godhood, and His accomplishment of saving me
• I should take comfort in knowing that my salvation is complete and finished. That Jesus did it for me and I can rest in Him. I need to remember that every time I sin, and feel the temptation to redeem myself through petty acts of service

Is this supposed to be a Gospel message?

Rob Bell has put another winner out on youtube:

Overall I don't care if he uses visual tricks, pumping music, and cool clothes. I don't particularly identify with it, but I lump that in with the "all things to all people that some might hear the Gospel". Similar to how I think we should translate the Bible to other languages, and dress appropriately to the culture so as not to offend.

That said here are a few of the things that most disturbed me. I'm trying hard to stick to the issues he brings up in the video. If any hint of distaste for Rob himself is interpreted, please know that I bear him personally no animosity. BUT I do carry much resentment for the concepts that he espouses and then tries to label as Christianity.

-- "If Death is all we have to look forward to, then Despair is our only hope." Before I get to the stuff I didn't like, I did want to point out that the beginning of his piece is pretty right on. I completely agree that without Christ despair is our only expectation. I would probably add that there's something more dangerous than despair though, and that's the judgment of God against sinners. It's not just this world we must fear, but the next. I may have a slightly different methodology so I don't mean to throw very hard stones at the 'despair' approach. However I don't know of any examples where Jesus started a witnessing encounter with a discussion of their despair. I know of many where He began by discussing their sin.

-- "This world matters to God, this world that God is restoring and Redeeming." This particular concept is rampant nowadays. Frankly the scripture support for this concept is very slim. In fact can anyone site an example where God says He's even going to keep this world? I thought He was going to create a new heavens and a new earth and destroy this one. In contrast to 'restoration' as the church's mission, the scriptural support for the church's mission as a disciple making body is much stronger. As far as I can tell, the main reason many churches have been pushing this 'restore the planet' agenda is because its much more appealing to the rest of the world than hearing a message about man's sin and need for a savior. Can anyone point to any examples in scripture where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or John recommended that we redeem the world politically or socioeconomically, apart from an out-growth of our desire and ability to share the gospel? Sure they took care of the poor, but they did it either for people who were already in the body, or as a gateway to share the gospel with them.

-- "Every act of good matters and will go on" This doesn't have any scriptural basis that I can think of. If anyone has any examples I'd be interested to hear it. On the other hand there are many verses that talk about how our works are nothing more than filthy rags. I think this message, like most of Rob's messages, are meant to be out-reach messages. Hearing this is very confusing if you don't know that your works can't contribute to your salvation. In fact i'd go so far as to say the confusion is dangerous. Because if you think you can earn your way to God's good side, then you are on the 'broad road leading to destruction'

-- "Everything that elevates the soul is a taste of what will be." This sparks very much of universalism. To me, I hear him implying: "Believe whatever makes you feel good and elevates you." On the other hand, Jesus was pretty clear that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And that no one could come to the Father but through Him. If Rob is serious about presenting the gospel, why wouldn't he be clear about it? Why would he twist it to try and be more 'encompassing'. The gospel is quite narrow. Paul is pretty clear about this in most of his epistles because people kept trying to broaden it. The Galatians tried to add Judaism, the Corinthians tried to add pagan practices, the Greeks tried to add philosophy. Our current culture tries to add "everything" so that no one is left out. Instead we should be pointing to the scriptures which proclaim that there is only way to heaven, and that is via the propitiating sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.

Is the Gospel worth fighting for?

So the question my friend posed to me today was: "Is it worth staying at a church that has things mostly right doctrinally, since there are not perfect churches."

My answer was, we should get along and stay in our church if we have slight, minor disagreements. But if your church has a core problem, like with whether grace is free or supplemented by works, then that is something worth fighting for and leaving for if the leadership of the church won't adhere to the Bible.

More follow up on my discussions on google reader

Here's the latest in my google-reader thread with a gentleman.

-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.

WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."

The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.

By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.

Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010

-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.

I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.

As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.

You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.

I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.

I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:

"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.

"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.

I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.

I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.

I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010

I am Convicted

I imagine that you all are familiar with Penn and Teller. They're a couple of funny magicians who headline in Vegas. They're well known atheists and quite proud of that status. They even have a show on Showtime where they talk about various philosophical topics including their Atheism. (Beware the show title includes a curse word)

All that setup to include this youtube video from Penn Gillette where he discusses the Christian responsibility to share the Gospel. By the way, even after this clip was filmed, Penn has repeatedly confirmed that he has not 'converted' and is still very firmly an atheist.



I gotta be dead honest. I am a coward about sharing the Gospel, especially with those I actually care about. The people I don't know, I'm easy with the Gospel, b/c I have nothing to loose. But with my family and friends, I don't want to risk loosing my friendship with them, if they reject the Gospel.

How dare I wimp out when they are in mortal danger? Penn's words in the clip: "How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them about it...", cut me to the core.

What about you?