Rob Bell has put another winner out on youtube:
Overall I don't care if he uses visual tricks, pumping music, and cool clothes. I don't particularly identify with it, but I lump that in with the "all things to all people that some might hear the Gospel". Similar to how I think we should translate the Bible to other languages, and dress appropriately to the culture so as not to offend.
That said here are a few of the things that most disturbed me. I'm trying hard to stick to the issues he brings up in the video. If any hint of distaste for Rob himself is interpreted, please know that I bear him personally no animosity. BUT I do carry much resentment for the concepts that he espouses and then tries to label as Christianity.
-- "If Death is all we have to look forward to, then Despair is our only hope." Before I get to the stuff I didn't like, I did want to point out that the beginning of his piece is pretty right on. I completely agree that without Christ despair is our only expectation. I would probably add that there's something more dangerous than despair though, and that's the judgment of God against sinners. It's not just this world we must fear, but the next. I may have a slightly different methodology so I don't mean to throw very hard stones at the 'despair' approach. However I don't know of any examples where Jesus started a witnessing encounter with a discussion of their despair. I know of many where He began by discussing their sin.
-- "This world matters to God, this world that God is restoring and Redeeming." This particular concept is rampant nowadays. Frankly the scripture support for this concept is very slim. In fact can anyone site an example where God says He's even going to keep this world? I thought He was going to create a new heavens and a new earth and destroy this one. In contrast to 'restoration' as the church's mission, the scriptural support for the church's mission as a disciple making body is much stronger. As far as I can tell, the main reason many churches have been pushing this 'restore the planet' agenda is because its much more appealing to the rest of the world than hearing a message about man's sin and need for a savior. Can anyone point to any examples in scripture where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or John recommended that we redeem the world politically or socioeconomically, apart from an out-growth of our desire and ability to share the gospel? Sure they took care of the poor, but they did it either for people who were already in the body, or as a gateway to share the gospel with them.
-- "Every act of good matters and will go on" This doesn't have any scriptural basis that I can think of. If anyone has any examples I'd be interested to hear it. On the other hand there are many verses that talk about how our works are nothing more than filthy rags. I think this message, like most of Rob's messages, are meant to be out-reach messages. Hearing this is very confusing if you don't know that your works can't contribute to your salvation. In fact i'd go so far as to say the confusion is dangerous. Because if you think you can earn your way to God's good side, then you are on the 'broad road leading to destruction'
-- "Everything that elevates the soul is a taste of what will be." This sparks very much of universalism. To me, I hear him implying: "Believe whatever makes you feel good and elevates you." On the other hand, Jesus was pretty clear that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And that no one could come to the Father but through Him. If Rob is serious about presenting the gospel, why wouldn't he be clear about it? Why would he twist it to try and be more 'encompassing'. The gospel is quite narrow. Paul is pretty clear about this in most of his epistles because people kept trying to broaden it. The Galatians tried to add Judaism, the Corinthians tried to add pagan practices, the Greeks tried to add philosophy. Our current culture tries to add "everything" so that no one is left out. Instead we should be pointing to the scriptures which proclaim that there is only way to heaven, and that is via the propitiating sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.
Thursday, April 8, 2010
Sunday, March 7, 2010
Is the Gospel worth fighting for?
So the question my friend posed to me today was: "Is it worth staying at a church that has things mostly right doctrinally, since there are not perfect churches."
My answer was, we should get along and stay in our church if we have slight, minor disagreements. But if your church has a core problem, like with whether grace is free or supplemented by works, then that is something worth fighting for and leaving for if the leadership of the church won't adhere to the Bible.
My answer was, we should get along and stay in our church if we have slight, minor disagreements. But if your church has a core problem, like with whether grace is free or supplemented by works, then that is something worth fighting for and leaving for if the leadership of the church won't adhere to the Bible.
More follow up on my discussions on google reader
Here's the latest in my google-reader thread with a gentleman.
-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.
WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."
The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.
By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.
Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010
-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.
I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.
As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.
You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.
I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.
I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:
"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.
"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.
I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.
I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.
I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010
-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.
WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."
The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.
By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.
Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010
-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.
I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.
As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.
You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.
I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.
I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:
"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.
"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.
I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.
I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.
I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010
Friday, January 22, 2010
I am Convicted
I imagine that you all are familiar with Penn and Teller. They're a couple of funny magicians who headline in Vegas. They're well known atheists and quite proud of that status. They even have a show on Showtime where they talk about various philosophical topics including their Atheism. (Beware the show title includes a curse word)
All that setup to include this youtube video from Penn Gillette where he discusses the Christian responsibility to share the Gospel. By the way, even after this clip was filmed, Penn has repeatedly confirmed that he has not 'converted' and is still very firmly an atheist.
I gotta be dead honest. I am a coward about sharing the Gospel, especially with those I actually care about. The people I don't know, I'm easy with the Gospel, b/c I have nothing to loose. But with my family and friends, I don't want to risk loosing my friendship with them, if they reject the Gospel.
How dare I wimp out when they are in mortal danger? Penn's words in the clip: "How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them about it...", cut me to the core.
What about you?
All that setup to include this youtube video from Penn Gillette where he discusses the Christian responsibility to share the Gospel. By the way, even after this clip was filmed, Penn has repeatedly confirmed that he has not 'converted' and is still very firmly an atheist.
I gotta be dead honest. I am a coward about sharing the Gospel, especially with those I actually care about. The people I don't know, I'm easy with the Gospel, b/c I have nothing to loose. But with my family and friends, I don't want to risk loosing my friendship with them, if they reject the Gospel.
How dare I wimp out when they are in mortal danger? Penn's words in the clip: "How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them about it...", cut me to the core.
What about you?
Sunday, December 20, 2009
Nooma 23
here's a youtube link to this embeded video:
its got what looks like Portuguese sub titles but audio is in English.
What bugs me most about nooma videos is the imprecision of the language. The statements sort of thrown out there to be 'provocative' instead of informative. Just some examples from my notes after watching this movie. I took the notes fast so I might not have quoted perfectly:
"its my field. why should I let them on to take my stuff? its not fair" this is true its not fair and it shouldn't be extrapolated in how to run a government or your office or some other secular organization. However the church is not the government, nor is my family the government. We should be generous. Not to those who are lazy. The scriptures quoted from Deut. 24:19-22 are very clear that its to be left for widows, orphans, and aliens. These are people who are incapable of providing for themselves. Someone could easily hear what Rob says and think that the government should be providing health care, social security, and other benefits for people who haven't earned them.
"liberation is unfair, freedom is unfair, redemption is unfair, grace is unfair, God isn't fair." This is quite a dangerous statement. To say that God isn't fair means He isn't just. Saying He isn't just is a violation of scripture and the nature of God. He is fair. He punished sin! He also provided mercy through His Son's atoning death on the Cross. Now I don't think He has to be fair in His distribution of Grace its up to Him. But just saying God's not fair without some caviots and clarifications can be horribly confusing to people.
"when you empower others in their oppression, whatever that looks like. we find out out about God's power to us" That's fruit-cake. If you're a Christian you might being doing God's will and therefor feel empowered to further serve. But if you're not then just being nice to someone will make you feel better and that's it. In fact it will damn you worse because you'll think that you're doing good things and assuaging the guilt you've earned for cheating on your wife or taxes. Its a very very dangerous thing to say and do just to be nice.
"ultimately life is about a larger truth to find suffering. do something about it or we'll be miserable. our education time and money will turn on us if we don't give it away" I don't even have the slightest idea what he's trying to say here. "Turn on us" what does that mean? Millions of people are just happy thank you very much to do whatever makes them feel good. Being nice for nice's sake or even other people's sake doesn't mean or do anything if its not done for God. In fact as I said in the one above it hoses you even more because it tricks you into thinking you're doing something of benefit to yourself.
"our lives are either about us, or about a different path. this is why Jesus taught about serving" What??!?! our lives are about us or a different path? Why not tell us what the path is? How does this distinguish Christians from PETA followers? Jesus didn't teach about serving as an end to itself. He took pity on others and taught compassion as a way to reach them for the Gospel. How many times did He use a miracle just to point out to the pharisees that their good work in serving others was totally meaningless b/c they did it for the wrong reasons!
"extend unfairness to others. your overflow to someone else's necessity. find someone who needs what you have, only to discover they have what you needed all along." Huh? I guess in a sense he's talking about capitalism. If I find someone with a need that I can fill, I can sell it to them and get money back which is something I need to procure other goods and services that will help me. Oh wait, that's not the point of this talk I guess... Other Humans have nothing, nothing that I need in an ultimate sense. I sure appreciate nice words occasionally and thanksgiving for shoveling the walk from snow. But JESUS has what I need. He is the one offering salvation and grace and wonder and joy and wisdom and completeness. Serving someone else doesn't offer those things.
its got what looks like Portuguese sub titles but audio is in English.
What bugs me most about nooma videos is the imprecision of the language. The statements sort of thrown out there to be 'provocative' instead of informative. Just some examples from my notes after watching this movie. I took the notes fast so I might not have quoted perfectly:
"its my field. why should I let them on to take my stuff? its not fair" this is true its not fair and it shouldn't be extrapolated in how to run a government or your office or some other secular organization. However the church is not the government, nor is my family the government. We should be generous. Not to those who are lazy. The scriptures quoted from Deut. 24:19-22 are very clear that its to be left for widows, orphans, and aliens. These are people who are incapable of providing for themselves. Someone could easily hear what Rob says and think that the government should be providing health care, social security, and other benefits for people who haven't earned them.
"liberation is unfair, freedom is unfair, redemption is unfair, grace is unfair, God isn't fair." This is quite a dangerous statement. To say that God isn't fair means He isn't just. Saying He isn't just is a violation of scripture and the nature of God. He is fair. He punished sin! He also provided mercy through His Son's atoning death on the Cross. Now I don't think He has to be fair in His distribution of Grace its up to Him. But just saying God's not fair without some caviots and clarifications can be horribly confusing to people.
"when you empower others in their oppression, whatever that looks like. we find out out about God's power to us" That's fruit-cake. If you're a Christian you might being doing God's will and therefor feel empowered to further serve. But if you're not then just being nice to someone will make you feel better and that's it. In fact it will damn you worse because you'll think that you're doing good things and assuaging the guilt you've earned for cheating on your wife or taxes. Its a very very dangerous thing to say and do just to be nice.
"ultimately life is about a larger truth to find suffering. do something about it or we'll be miserable. our education time and money will turn on us if we don't give it away" I don't even have the slightest idea what he's trying to say here. "Turn on us" what does that mean? Millions of people are just happy thank you very much to do whatever makes them feel good. Being nice for nice's sake or even other people's sake doesn't mean or do anything if its not done for God. In fact as I said in the one above it hoses you even more because it tricks you into thinking you're doing something of benefit to yourself.
"our lives are either about us, or about a different path. this is why Jesus taught about serving" What??!?! our lives are about us or a different path? Why not tell us what the path is? How does this distinguish Christians from PETA followers? Jesus didn't teach about serving as an end to itself. He took pity on others and taught compassion as a way to reach them for the Gospel. How many times did He use a miracle just to point out to the pharisees that their good work in serving others was totally meaningless b/c they did it for the wrong reasons!
"extend unfairness to others. your overflow to someone else's necessity. find someone who needs what you have, only to discover they have what you needed all along." Huh? I guess in a sense he's talking about capitalism. If I find someone with a need that I can fill, I can sell it to them and get money back which is something I need to procure other goods and services that will help me. Oh wait, that's not the point of this talk I guess... Other Humans have nothing, nothing that I need in an ultimate sense. I sure appreciate nice words occasionally and thanksgiving for shoveling the walk from snow. But JESUS has what I need. He is the one offering salvation and grace and wonder and joy and wisdom and completeness. Serving someone else doesn't offer those things.
Tuesday, December 1, 2009
More google reader discussion
Here's some more dialogue on my discussion on google reader. In this installment, the guy I'm talking to presents a very clear understanding of the horribleness of Hell. I frankly don't think many Christians understand how bad Hell is, let alone non-Christ followers.
I pray that my church, and other churches, would preach as clearly as this poor guy does about how terrible Hell really is. That people would recognize their danger and flee to Christ.
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I pray that my church, and other churches, would preach as clearly as this poor guy does about how terrible Hell really is. That people would recognize their danger and flee to Christ.
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| Not-me: |
 | you: | Wow I really appreciate your understanding of the depths and length of the punishment involved in spending eternity in Hell. I don't think most believers, let alone non-Christ followers, grasp what you're saying here. Jesus called Hell Gehenna, which was a burning, filthy trash-pit outside of Jerusalem, that never stopped burning and was the foulest thing His hearers could grasp. I don't think it would be inaccurate at all to say your description/illustration parallels His. In a converse way you're describing how Holy God is by describing how terrible the punishment is. Just to turn around the last part of your argument: God is more Holy and perfect than 10^90 bits of information could describe. His perfection is greater than that even. Its this indescribable 'otherness' that makes sin, even small sin, so reprehensible and foul to Him, and why He must put it away from His presence. Incidentally, this makes His decision to send His Son to earth to die for us, completely mind blowing!!! Why would He do that? Why would He knowingly sacrifice His Son for people that had violated Him so powerfully. This is why I don't just follow some words in the Bible, or go to church on Sundays in order to get some morality in my life, or in order to be 'good' to my fellow man. I worship, and spend my life trying to love and obey Jesus in response to His great, un-comprehensible gift. I can't change your mind by arguing with you, though I do enjoy the challenge of your questions and thoughtful responses. All I can do is ask, no beg, you to look at how much you have sinned. And then use your understanding of Hell to bring you to a desire for rescue from that punishment. The Bible is true, God will not let those who have sinned against him to go un-punished. He is a just judge and must punish lawbreakers. It sounds like you've read the Bible before, so this challenge may sound silly, but read the gospel of John and watch how John portrays Jesus. John's goal in writing is to show that Jesus is/was God. Jesus is harsh with some, but kind and gentle with others. See yourself in Nicodemus in chapter 3, a smart guy who thought He understood, but needed Christ to point out His shortcomings to welcome Nic in. Look at the woman at the well in chapter 4 and see yourself in someone who has sinned greatly and to whom Jesus should not be talking to, but instead He does and shows her Great mercy. In John 5 recognize yourself in the lame man who could do nothing to heal or save himself without Jesus' help. I could go on, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say. The Holy Spirit uses scripture to change and soften hearts to the Gospel. I pray that He would do that for you, as He did for me. |
Sunday, November 29, 2009
Discussion from Google Reader
I've been having a discussion on a google shared item for the last few days. I'm reprinting here for posterity... I've changed the name of the person I'm discussing with, and added the horizontal rules to make the sides of the conversation clear... The not-me starts out next:
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| Not-me: | Haha! Now only if God hadn't written Leviticus... |
| you: | I'm disappointed that the author didn't point out that the atheist's resulting judgment was to be punished by God for all eternity for not repenting and believing before dying. Of course God is loving and merciful, but He's also just, and therefore He must punish law-breakers, just like an earthly judge punishes law breakers no matter what they say or do to try and worm out of it. If they didn't punish they wouldn't be just, and neither would God. |
| not-me: | Don't kid yourself, the Christian god isn't just or merciful. Ask the children of the ruler Sihon: Deut (2:33-34) And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. |
| you: | fascinating. you're saying God wasn't just in destroying a people who had rejected Him as God? Sounds like good grounds to me. In fact we all have rejected Him since the Garden. Its amazing mercy that He lets any of us live and breathe. Its His air after all, not ours. |
| Not-Me: | That's exactly what I'm saying. God is imaginary, and justifying genocide in his name is a horrendous abuse of power. But, let's assume that god really exists for a second. All of those destroyed people went to hell, yes? How is an ETERNITY of punishment a morally acceptable form of 'justice' to any possible crime here on earth? Pol Pot doesn't deserve eternal punishment for what he did in Cambodia. The argument that the Christian god is just is false prima facie. |
| you: | Ahh, so this is where your understanding is not accurate as to the nature of God. You're right that eternity of punishment for crimes committed here on earth isn't warranted. But those crimes aren't just committed here on earth. They're also committed against the Creator of the Universe. You'd be right that the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime if the person to whom the crime was committed was an equivalent human agent such as ourselves. But that's just it God isn't equivalent to us. He is infinitely above us and therefore sins committed against Him are infinitely worse than those of ours committed against each other. As a weak illustration, imagine I threatened to kill you, at worst I might get some civil suit with a restraining order or an attempted murder charge which would only put me in prison for a few months or a couple of years. If instead I threatened or was able to kill a United States President, I would be jailed for life, or put in the electric chair. See the punishment changes based on who the offense is committed against, with the more stringent punishment applied to the one offending the greater person. Even the "little sin" of Adam disobeying in the garden was enough to get him and Eve booted out forever. Because it wasn't so much that they did what God told them not to, it was that they choose to be their own gods in their defiance of His will. This is the ultimate blasphemy and a perfect and Holy God must elevate Himself above all others. Therefore their elevation of themselves above Him, deserved death. A death that God delayed until it could be carried out on His Son. In fact this death was foretold twice right in chapter 3 of Genesis. Once when God says "he will strike your heel, but he will crush his head". This is God pointing out that Satan will nip Jesus by contributing to His death, but that Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection was the death blow for Satan. Secondly God kills an animal and makes a skin covering for Adam and Eve to replace the insufficient fig-leave covering they had made for themselves. This was the first death ever. A tremendous thing. God took sin so seriously that He killed the first ever animal as a symbol of the payment necessary that His Son would come to provide for Adam and Eve later. Sin is so serious to God that only blood can pay for it. The most precious substance we have. And the debt we have incurred so great that only the most valuable blood would be acceptable to a perfect God. That blood is the shed blood of the perfect God-man sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God isn't imaginary. The empty tomb proves it, the creation around us proves it, yours and my conscience proves it. But none of those proofs will work for you until you realize that your sin is way worse than you currently think it is. Reflect for a little on how much sin you've committed (the thousands of lies you've told, the repeated blasphemies declaring that God isn't real or just, the disobedience to your parents, the lustful thoughts, the things you've stolen, etc, etc..). The Bible says that God hates sin, and that He will in no-ways leave sins committed un-punished. Please think about how bad your sin is, and then repent and believe that Jesus' death is sufficient to cover your sins. Repenting means recognizing your sin's depths and confessing them to God and then turning away from them, and by God's grace and help stopping them. If you truly repent and believe then you will see your life change as the Holy Spirit begins to drive you to want to be more like Jesus. |
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In 100 years, civilization will be nearly unrecognisable to the likes of you and me. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not have even considered begun.
After 100 periods of 100 years (10^4 y.), civilization WILL be completely unrecognisable to us. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
After 100 periods of 10,000 years (10^6 y.), humanity itself will be unrecognisable to us. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
After 100 periods of 1,000,000 years (10^8 y.), the world itself will not look like what our maps display. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
After 100 periods of 100,000,000 years (10^10 y.), the world will be gone, swallowed by a sun turned red-giant and then diminished into a hard white dwarf. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
After 100 periods of 10,000,000,000 years (10^12 y), our galaxy, having merged with Andromeda 98,000,000,000 years ago will have finally settled down into a peaceful eliptical galaxy, unrecognizable from the beautiful barred spiral it is today. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
After 10^100 years, our universe will have come up against heat death. All but the very very very largest supermassive blackholes will have evaporated into random radiation; the protons and neutrons that make up all matter will have long since decayed into weak photons; there is nothing left but a thin gruel of electrons and neutrinos. If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
As a matter of fact, if you take 10^100 years, and turn up the punishment so that each year turns into 10^100 years (10^^100 years; or take 10, raise it to the power of a Googol, then take EACH '0' in the power and turn each and every one into 100 '0's) that's 10 raised to the power of a 1-with-ten-thousand-zeros-behind-it, That's a number so large as to be literally unimaginable. There are only 10^90 particles in the entire universe! If you were punished for this many years, compared to being punished for an infinite number of years, your punishment would not even be considered as having started.
An infinity in hell is unconcionable, no matter what the sin is. No matter what. Ever.