More follow up on my discussions on google reader

Here's the latest in my google-reader thread with a gentleman.

-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.

WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."

The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.

By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.

Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010

-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.

I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.

As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.

You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.

I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.

I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:

"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.

"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.

I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.

I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.

I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010

Quick Bibliology...

Here's the text of the 'worksheet' I prepared for home group (aka Bible study this week). The idea is that the attenders would read Psalm 19 in addition to answering the open-ended questions at the beginning of the study. I then answered the rest of the questions because I wanted this to be more of a resource than a pure question/answer session.

My list of references is as follows:

• Essential Truths of the Christian Faith by R.C. Sproul
• Now that's a Good Question by R.C. Sproul
• A Ready Defense by Josh McDowell
• Starting Point by North Point Church
• Is what we have now what they had then? By Dr. Dan Wallace.

Proving that the Bible we have today is the authentic word of God.

What was your exposure to the Bible growing up?



How would you describe your current perspective on the Bible?



What role does the Bible play in your daily life?



Psalm 19 describes Scripture as perfect, trustworthy, right, beautiful, etc.. Are these descriptions overstated? Why or why not?



Why do people struggle so much with believing that the Bible is really the word of God?


How does God communicate with man?

Revelation (Hebrews 1:1-2, Psalm 19) -- Idle speculation about God is foolish. If we wish to know who God is, we must rely on what he says about Himself.
-- General - That which is expressed to all men through creation and internal conscience
-- Specific - That which is expressed in His Scripture or direct immediate 'voice of God'
The Bible contains Paradoxes and Mysteries, but no Contradictions:
-- Paradox -- an apparent contradiction that under closer scrutiny yields resolution.
-- Mystery (Romans 16:25-27) -- something unknown to us now, but which may be resolved in the future.
-- Contradiction (1 Corinthians 14:33) -- a statement that claims something both is and is not in the same time and context. These are not understandable.

If the Bible was written by man, how can it be the Word of God?

-- Its the word of God because, the Bible itself claims to be so. 2 Timothy 3:16 "For all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
-- God inspired the authors to write the words of God through their direct human experience. 2 Peter 1:19-20

Who wrote the Bible?

-- Kings, shepherds, outcasts, scholars, laborers.
-- 3 Continents (Africa, Asia, & Europe)
-- 3 Languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek)
-- 40 different authors
-- Covers more than a thousand years of authorship, yet covers one theme: A loving God working to draw people to Himself via redemption.

How were the books in the Bible decided on as the authentic word of God?

-- Important to note that the church did not decide what books should be included. That would put the church above the Scripture. Instead they recognized the books that were inspired from their inception, and 'received' them from God.
-- The cannon of scripture means the standard of scripture.
-- The Old Testament cannon decided well before Christ by the Jews. A.D. 70 they codify the list to distinguish the Jewish texts from the rising Christian ones.
-- The cannon list published as early as 367 A.D. by Athanasius (church leader of the time) Repeated again at the Synod of Hippo 393 A.D.
-- New Testament books were recognized based on three criteria:
(1) They must have apostolic authorship or endorsement.
(2) They must be received as authoritative by the early church.
(3) They must be in harmony with the books about which there is no doubt.
-- No argument between Catholic and Protestant on NT. Some disagreement on apocryphal books. Those that fell between the Old and New Testament time periods. Most evidence points to a Jewish exclusion of those books in their OT. Also some things in those books contradict things stated in the New Testament. Council of Trent in 1546, the Roman Catholic church officially recognizes apocryphal books as cannon. A bit late if you ask me....

How do we measure the authenticity of any ancient text?

(1) How many copies do we have of the original and how close are they to when we think the original was written?
(2) Are the texts internally consistent and truthful?
(3) Is there external archeological evidence to support claims in the ancient text?

What are some facts and figures to support the authenticity of the document we have today is the same document they had back then?
Old Testament
-- Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 & 1956 are dated around 100 B.C.
-- Talmudists (A.D. 100 - 500) Followed a strict 17 rules about copying the OT books, including rules like not copying anything from memory, or only using new skins etc.
-- Massoretics (A.D. 500 - 900) Followed additional word counts and calculations to ensure that nothing was out of place in a copy. For instance they calculated teh middle word and middle letter of each page geographically and made sure that each copy matched the original.
New Testament
-- More than 5,700 copies in Greek; 10,000 in Latin; another 10 - 15,000 copies in other languages and more than 1,000,000 quotations of early patristic writings that cover the entire NT except for eleven verses.
-- Earliest NT fragments are from 100 A.D. that's within decades of when the authors probably wrote. Its well assumed that Book of John was written between 70 and 90 A.D., 1 Revelations, around 95 A.D.
-- Of the supposed translation differences, 90% of them are actually untranslatable as differences in English. E.g. 500 different ways to say Jesus loves Paul in Greek.
-- Less than 1% of variants are both meaningful and viable. They concern no important doctrinal issues. E.g. The number of the beast is either 666 or 616.

How do we interpret the Bible? (2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:14-18; 2 Tim 2:14-15)

-- Scripture always interprets scripture. Meaning that we understand a passage by understanding both its local context, and all of scripture's perspective on a particular topic.
-- Scripture must be interpreted with respect to the original audience and their intended understanding of the words spoken to them.
-- Scripture's genres must be interpreted as those genres would be in non-scripture. I.e. poetry as poetry, history as history, hyperbole as hyperbole etc...
-- The explicit scriptures always interpret the implicit verses.
-- The rules of logic apply to interpreting scripture.
-- A particular passage can only have one correct meaning. It is our responsibility to do our best to seek that singular correct interpretation.

What about those "contradictions" like the seemingly different accounts of Christ's death?

• Matt. 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
• Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he breathed his last."
• John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up His spirit."

At first glance these may appear to be contradictions, but they actually represent different degrees of emphasis. And even more so they lend credibility to different eye-witnesses remembering their encounters with the actual experience. If all of the accounts were in lock-step it would lend less credibility b/c it would seem as if only one person saw things and the others merely parroted him.

Bottom line:
The Bible is the word of God because the Holy Spirit testifies that it is. When a believer, or even a non-believer sometimes, reads the text he or she can feel the weight and reality of the text. If God is truly the God of the universe and capable of all things, then He's also capable of making sure the words that He wants communicated about Himself are actually communicated in an authentic way.