Email number two is from me.
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Doug wrote:
I haven't heard of open theism before.
I'm in Hebrews right now, so a lot of my thinking about who God is, is affected by that book at the moment. Heb. 1:1-4 is the author's way to grab our attention and get us to see that Jesus, not only is God, but that He is also the provider of purification for our sins. And let me tell you, I need that.
See for me, a lot of who God is, makes sense to me in the context of His promises to save us from our sins if we repent and believe in Him. God repeatedly promises to save us to the uttermost, to be the anchor of our soul, to never leave us nor forsake us, etc... He can only make those promises if He is completely in control and has full knowledge of the past, present, and future.
One way its been explained to me is that God is outside of time. He exists in eternity, which means that finite time is like a filmstrip that He is standing back and looking at. He can see all points on the time line all at once. And this is no problem for Him because He is infinite. Our little minds would just be blown by the thought of such an experience. But being the creator of all, even time, it's no big deal for Him.
Anyway all that to illustrate that when God makes a promise, He's actually able to keep it because He has existed before, during and after time. And since God cannot lie, then I can trust His promises and know that He will save me forever.
Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
--doug ><>
Monday, June 14, 2010
Sunday, June 13, 2010
Email Apologetics 1
This starts a series of posts where I'm interacting with a friend of mine's dad. Its a great exchange. I hope you can benefit from this exchange as I have. I'll post the emails one at a time. I'm sanitizing the names. The first is from my friend.
From: Doug's Friend
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 8:33:40 PM
Subject: new question from Dad
Hi Doug (and Dad),
Just spoke with Dad on his way home from a weekend down the shore. I let him know that he has some e-mail waiting in his inbox. Dad asked another question:
"Does God know the future?"
This is clearly the leading question that an open theist (like Greg Boyd) would ask. My Dad remarked that if God does not know the future then "it gets Him off the hook" for alot of stuff.
I'll say this now: it's absolutely unorthodox. It is aberrant teaching in my opinion.
From: Doug's Friend
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 8:33:40 PM
Subject: new question from Dad
Hi Doug (and Dad),
Just spoke with Dad on his way home from a weekend down the shore. I let him know that he has some e-mail waiting in his inbox. Dad asked another question:
"Does God know the future?"
This is clearly the leading question that an open theist (like Greg Boyd) would ask. My Dad remarked that if God does not know the future then "it gets Him off the hook" for alot of stuff.
I'll say this now: it's absolutely unorthodox. It is aberrant teaching in my opinion.
Sunday, June 6, 2010
Hebrews 1:4-6 Jesus is greater than the angels
Hebrews 1:4-6 "4having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? 6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him.""
Observation/Interpretation:
Observation/Interpretation:
- Jesus is greater than all others. The author of Hebrews will start comparing/contrasting Jesus with Angels, and then move on to Moses and the Law.
- In this passage Jesus is better than angels because:
- Jesus has a better name. His name means "the Lord saves" This is a better name than Angel which is the word for messenger. If you're in deep trouble, wouldn't you rather have someone who can actually save you than someone who just tells you a message about it?
- Jesus is God's son. That's way better than an angel. Angels are not in the family of God, but are mere servants. Jesus is both God and the Son in the Trinity. This position is far higher than the angels
- Lastly Jesus is worshiped by the angels. Clearly the greater is worshiped by the lesser.
- Jesus is the greatest! I must worship Him.
- Jesus saves! I want to tell others about Him, and I want to know that I am saved. By the way what am I needing saving from? The wrath of God that I've earned by treasonously sinning against God the King (Luke 13). I can attain that salvation by repenting and believing. (Rom 10)
Monday, May 31, 2010
Hebrews 1:1-3
These are some cross posts from another blog I'm trying to get started with some friends of mine. We're trying to study Hebrews (or any scripture for that matter) in a blog format instead of email. Its not exactly taking off yet...
Hebrews 1:1-3: 1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.He is the radiance of the glory of God and After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Observations/Interpretations:
Hebrews 1:1-3: 1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.He is the radiance of the glory of God and After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Observations/Interpretations:
- The main point of the book of Hebrews is to tell us that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish Old Testament prophets and law. The book starts out by saying we heard about God other ways in the past, but now we know about Him directly via Jesus.
- Jesus is the creative force that created the world. Similar to John 1:1-3.
- Jesus is God
- Jesus upholds every atom as it spins. He keeps the ratios between the strong and weak nuclear forces just right so that atoms don't fly apart and the universe collapses. He literally holds everything together.
- Jesus purified us from our sins, those who believe as we'll see later in the book, and now sits down next to the Father in heaven. This means that His work is finished once for all time.
- I must worship Jesus for His power, His Godhood, and His accomplishment of saving me
- I should take comfort in knowing that my salvation is complete and finished. That Jesus did it for me and I can rest in Him. I need to remember that every time I sin, and feel the temptation to redeem myself through petty acts of service
Thursday, April 8, 2010
Is this supposed to be a Gospel message?
Rob Bell has put another winner out on youtube:
Overall I don't care if he uses visual tricks, pumping music, and cool clothes. I don't particularly identify with it, but I lump that in with the "all things to all people that some might hear the Gospel". Similar to how I think we should translate the Bible to other languages, and dress appropriately to the culture so as not to offend.
That said here are a few of the things that most disturbed me. I'm trying hard to stick to the issues he brings up in the video. If any hint of distaste for Rob himself is interpreted, please know that I bear him personally no animosity. BUT I do carry much resentment for the concepts that he espouses and then tries to label as Christianity.
-- "If Death is all we have to look forward to, then Despair is our only hope." Before I get to the stuff I didn't like, I did want to point out that the beginning of his piece is pretty right on. I completely agree that without Christ despair is our only expectation. I would probably add that there's something more dangerous than despair though, and that's the judgment of God against sinners. It's not just this world we must fear, but the next. I may have a slightly different methodology so I don't mean to throw very hard stones at the 'despair' approach. However I don't know of any examples where Jesus started a witnessing encounter with a discussion of their despair. I know of many where He began by discussing their sin.
-- "This world matters to God, this world that God is restoring and Redeeming." This particular concept is rampant nowadays. Frankly the scripture support for this concept is very slim. In fact can anyone site an example where God says He's even going to keep this world? I thought He was going to create a new heavens and a new earth and destroy this one. In contrast to 'restoration' as the church's mission, the scriptural support for the church's mission as a disciple making body is much stronger. As far as I can tell, the main reason many churches have been pushing this 'restore the planet' agenda is because its much more appealing to the rest of the world than hearing a message about man's sin and need for a savior. Can anyone point to any examples in scripture where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or John recommended that we redeem the world politically or socioeconomically, apart from an out-growth of our desire and ability to share the gospel? Sure they took care of the poor, but they did it either for people who were already in the body, or as a gateway to share the gospel with them.
-- "Every act of good matters and will go on" This doesn't have any scriptural basis that I can think of. If anyone has any examples I'd be interested to hear it. On the other hand there are many verses that talk about how our works are nothing more than filthy rags. I think this message, like most of Rob's messages, are meant to be out-reach messages. Hearing this is very confusing if you don't know that your works can't contribute to your salvation. In fact i'd go so far as to say the confusion is dangerous. Because if you think you can earn your way to God's good side, then you are on the 'broad road leading to destruction'
-- "Everything that elevates the soul is a taste of what will be." This sparks very much of universalism. To me, I hear him implying: "Believe whatever makes you feel good and elevates you." On the other hand, Jesus was pretty clear that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And that no one could come to the Father but through Him. If Rob is serious about presenting the gospel, why wouldn't he be clear about it? Why would he twist it to try and be more 'encompassing'. The gospel is quite narrow. Paul is pretty clear about this in most of his epistles because people kept trying to broaden it. The Galatians tried to add Judaism, the Corinthians tried to add pagan practices, the Greeks tried to add philosophy. Our current culture tries to add "everything" so that no one is left out. Instead we should be pointing to the scriptures which proclaim that there is only way to heaven, and that is via the propitiating sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.
Overall I don't care if he uses visual tricks, pumping music, and cool clothes. I don't particularly identify with it, but I lump that in with the "all things to all people that some might hear the Gospel". Similar to how I think we should translate the Bible to other languages, and dress appropriately to the culture so as not to offend.
That said here are a few of the things that most disturbed me. I'm trying hard to stick to the issues he brings up in the video. If any hint of distaste for Rob himself is interpreted, please know that I bear him personally no animosity. BUT I do carry much resentment for the concepts that he espouses and then tries to label as Christianity.
-- "If Death is all we have to look forward to, then Despair is our only hope." Before I get to the stuff I didn't like, I did want to point out that the beginning of his piece is pretty right on. I completely agree that without Christ despair is our only expectation. I would probably add that there's something more dangerous than despair though, and that's the judgment of God against sinners. It's not just this world we must fear, but the next. I may have a slightly different methodology so I don't mean to throw very hard stones at the 'despair' approach. However I don't know of any examples where Jesus started a witnessing encounter with a discussion of their despair. I know of many where He began by discussing their sin.
-- "This world matters to God, this world that God is restoring and Redeeming." This particular concept is rampant nowadays. Frankly the scripture support for this concept is very slim. In fact can anyone site an example where God says He's even going to keep this world? I thought He was going to create a new heavens and a new earth and destroy this one. In contrast to 'restoration' as the church's mission, the scriptural support for the church's mission as a disciple making body is much stronger. As far as I can tell, the main reason many churches have been pushing this 'restore the planet' agenda is because its much more appealing to the rest of the world than hearing a message about man's sin and need for a savior. Can anyone point to any examples in scripture where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or John recommended that we redeem the world politically or socioeconomically, apart from an out-growth of our desire and ability to share the gospel? Sure they took care of the poor, but they did it either for people who were already in the body, or as a gateway to share the gospel with them.
-- "Every act of good matters and will go on" This doesn't have any scriptural basis that I can think of. If anyone has any examples I'd be interested to hear it. On the other hand there are many verses that talk about how our works are nothing more than filthy rags. I think this message, like most of Rob's messages, are meant to be out-reach messages. Hearing this is very confusing if you don't know that your works can't contribute to your salvation. In fact i'd go so far as to say the confusion is dangerous. Because if you think you can earn your way to God's good side, then you are on the 'broad road leading to destruction'
-- "Everything that elevates the soul is a taste of what will be." This sparks very much of universalism. To me, I hear him implying: "Believe whatever makes you feel good and elevates you." On the other hand, Jesus was pretty clear that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And that no one could come to the Father but through Him. If Rob is serious about presenting the gospel, why wouldn't he be clear about it? Why would he twist it to try and be more 'encompassing'. The gospel is quite narrow. Paul is pretty clear about this in most of his epistles because people kept trying to broaden it. The Galatians tried to add Judaism, the Corinthians tried to add pagan practices, the Greeks tried to add philosophy. Our current culture tries to add "everything" so that no one is left out. Instead we should be pointing to the scriptures which proclaim that there is only way to heaven, and that is via the propitiating sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.
Sunday, March 7, 2010
Is the Gospel worth fighting for?
So the question my friend posed to me today was: "Is it worth staying at a church that has things mostly right doctrinally, since there are not perfect churches."
My answer was, we should get along and stay in our church if we have slight, minor disagreements. But if your church has a core problem, like with whether grace is free or supplemented by works, then that is something worth fighting for and leaving for if the leadership of the church won't adhere to the Bible.
My answer was, we should get along and stay in our church if we have slight, minor disagreements. But if your church has a core problem, like with whether grace is free or supplemented by works, then that is something worth fighting for and leaving for if the leadership of the church won't adhere to the Bible.
More follow up on my discussions on google reader
Here's the latest in my google-reader thread with a gentleman.
-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.
WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."
The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.
By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.
Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010
-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.
I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.
As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.
You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.
I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.
I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:
"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.
"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.
I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.
I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.
I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010
-- Person that's not me --
I'm back. Been busy the past month. /UGH. I should have more time to continue our discussions (if you like) now.
WRT this statement of yours: "By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity we minimize the opportunity for a human to get in the way and mess up what God is trying to communicate. We actually believe that the Holy Spirit is real, and that He can directly lead someone to a correct interpretation of His word."
The problem with that is twofold. One, you're not reading the bible in a vacuum. Your friends have interpretations, your pastor has interpretations, the guys on the Christian radio station have interpretations &ct. You're awash in a sea of interpretations. The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2K years ago. It's a common joke amongst atheists that there are twice as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.
By pointing back to the Bible at every opportunity, you're just reinforcing a B.C.E. moral code into a modern setting. Just 100 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify slavery. They certainly didn't feel that they were 'interpreting' the bible, just like you don't. Just 50 years ago, people pointed back to the bible at every opportunity to justify racism. Today, people point back to the bible at every opportunity to justify homophobia. How is your interpretation qualitatively different than theirs? It isn't and is just as morally suspect - /even if it gives mostly good results/.
Morality is a contract with your society and it's always up for debate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Oh, as for the Centurion: there's a rather large difference between a) The Centurion went to see Jesus and b) The Town Elders went to see Jesus for the Centurion. At that point, a judge would seriously start to question the motives of any eyewitnesses at all if their stories diverged THAT much. Feb 15, 2010
-- Me --
Hi (person who is not me). Welcome back. I hope busy is a good thing financially for you. But I hope it hasn't taken you away from your family too much.
I see what you mean about the problem of interpreting the Bible in a 'current' context and therefore deriving a meaning that is unintended. I think your examples of the justification of slavery, or the poor treatment of black people underscore that point well. Those reasons are key to why we strive to interpret the Bible in the context in which it was written.
As with any document, one must interpret it in light of the intended audience. Just as a simple example, if I said "You're the baddest thrasher I've ever seen." to a skate boarder in the mid 1980's he'd take that statement as a big compliment. If I tried to interpret the same sentence in a 19th century context, they probably wouldn't understand me at all, but might understand me as saying something negative. All that to say we must interpret scripture to the best of our ability in the light in which it was written.
You're right that I don't interpret the scripture completely in a vacuum. I have a couple simple rules I follow when I read it: (1) All scripture is God Breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in Righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). (2) Scripture interprets scripture or put another way the explicit always interprets the implicit. (3) Pray that Holy Spirit will help me to interpret the scripture accurately.
I have a respectful fear of God and don't want to mishandle His word, or say "thus sayeth the Lord" when He didn't say or mean something. I'm not saying that good intentions are enough. We have to have backstop, and that's why its healthy to have other people occasionally comment or correct my interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying those people have more authority than the Bible, but that I recognize my weakness and sinfulness, and propensity to be selfish given the opportunity. So I submit myself to the Lord and to other believers who have a pattern for glorifying God above all things and place scripture above man's will or intellect.
I know this is an awfully long response that may be meandering a bit. But I want to cover a couple other points you bring up:
"Morality is a contract with your society and its always up for debate" I don't think that's really the case and neither do you. Murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are objectively wrong. Doesn't matter what culture or what century. Those things are just wrong. There may be some more subtle cultural things that fade in and out of 'wrongness' but there are also clear moral absolutes. It's a common proof of God in fact (put forward famously by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity which I recommend if you haven't read it), that universal moral law would only have come from a moral law giver, and therefore God must be providing the law.
"The ESV is just another interpretation of an interpretation of a scribe's work copied umpteen times about the mythology of a smallish group of people who lived 2k years ago" Unfortunately you just don't have the facts in this case. Since we're talking about the ESV here's a link that describes the sources they used: http://www.esv.org/translation/manuscripts In general we have a wealth of manuscript copies very close to the originals. So we're able to get very accurate translations of the greek and hebrew into 21st century english. Again I'd challenge you to listen to this lecture: http://dbcmedia.org/sermons/is-what-we-have-now-what-they-wrote-then/ if you're interested in correcting your information gaps.
I enjoy our discussion. But I don't want to waste your time either. Have you considered any of the points on sin I made in the other thread we shared? Do you see that you (just like me) are guilty before God for violating His Law and are basically not a good person, but a bad person? Even just a little badness separates us from God permanently (as you so eloquently pointed out in the other thread). This separation can only be bridged if God's rightful wrath can be propitiated. He sent His Son to be that propitiation so that He can be perfectly merciful and gracious and still justly punish sin. To apprehend that gracious, kind, mercy you must repent (which means turn from your sin) and trust that Jesus' death and resurrection is effective in saving you.
I know that presentation of the gospel (good news) may seem strange. But know that I believe this b/c I know that I'm a sinner even though I may look 'fine' to others. I know that my conscience accuses me of that sin and I agree with the accusation. I see the beautiful, intricate creation and know that I am not an accident. Since believing in Jesus when I was 12, and realizing God's sovereignty when I was 19, my life has never been the same. I have a God to worship and dedicate my life to. A purpose and never ending well to plumb for new insights to myself and a God that never ceases to amaze.
I hope and pray you could share this understanding. You describe hell so well. Its so scary. Please investigate the claims of Christ and the Bible seriously. Read the Bible. The Spirit works through those who read it. Feb 21, 2010
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